SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the first edition of series four of Grapes and Dreams. And we are here for a second overseas podcast. So it's been incredible. We are crossing out arena. Heard a lot about it. Always wanted to come. And finally, despite a little delay with air traffic control on Tuesday. We're making a flight 24 hours late. We have arrived and we've had an amazing time over the last couple of days. And our host and the person who's made it happen is, I'm pleased to say, our guest, and that's Davy Ashington. David, thank you so much for inviting us to come out. And it's been incredible.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Neil? Pleasure to host you here and glad you finally made it through after that torturous day you had with air traffic control.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Yeah, we sat on the uh runway for four hours thinking, oh well, we'll be late, but that's okay the first day, and then literally being told actually there's no flights coming at all. Um but hey, we we circled around. Um Andy and I got together and we found uh jet two, and we found that you could come to the same airport and 24 hours, or actually, probably slightly less than 24 hours um later, and we were here, and the the hospitality has been great, and the sunshine, as you said it would be laid on, has been laid on. As you can tell, what a backdrop, you know, what a backdrop. But um let's go way back. Um firstly, as we always do, we've got a Gusborne. Gusborne um have been uh supporters of ours for the last three uh uh series, and uh once again series four is they're here, and we've today uh delighted to introduce to you a Blanc de Blanc from 2020. Um so it's made purely of Chardonnay grapes. Um Chardonnay, uh unlike Pinot Noir, is pretty easy to make wine from. It's it's a hardy wine, it likes pretty much anything. Um and they've got quite a lot of the Chardonnay grapes. So their Blanc de Blanc, I think, is probably one of the best wines that they make. So have a slurp and see what you think.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

I'd love to. You've talked to about it very, very well, and not familiar with an English wine as well. There you go. Discuss.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

It's been in my bag a little bit too long. It's been in the fridge, but probably a little bit longer. But I you still feel the you know that taste coming through, and it comes comes down and you can feel it coming down here, and it's I just think it's a lovely wine. It's very smooth, very smooth. Easy, easy on the aftertaste.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Very smooth, very easy drinking, and isn't it perfect for a day like this? Oh, yeah, yeah, look at that.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Sun going down. What are we? Seven o'clock. Hey, not bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Not bad o'clock in the evening, lovely glass from Kent. You told me all about the vineyard and sounds spectacular, and it definitely works.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, looks great. But we always asked for a wine story as well. And you know, you started in Birmingham and then spent most of your career outside of the UK. So, Portugal, Spain, and now Greece, you must have come across some interesting wines in your time.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Firstly, I love a glass of wine. Um, nothing better to compliment a very nice dinner is a wonderful glass of wine, and probably did start to enjoy and respect the wine more when I arrived in Portugal. Um, you know, going through that gastronomy experience and enjoying that, coupling that with a really nice wine. Uh, a long time in Portugal, 16 years. Was it 16? 16 years. Uh so yeah, got to go around that quite a lot. We had a superb Sommelier at Monterey, uh, who was also educational. Uh, we did a lot of hosting there, so um, they got a Michelin star on their Vistus restaurant there, and uh he was the the top boy that uh gave me some really good intros into some some great wines. Then moving across to Spain, where there's quite a bit of rivalry there actually.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Oh, especially where you where you were, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Exactly, right up there in Catalunya. Yeah, yeah, there's quite some rivalry there, and um, me mentioning how much I enjoyed the Portuguese wines, I was told you need to try this. Yeah, uh, so I was getting a very good educational experience there at Camaral, who had a brilliant uh Somer Lier as well. So had a really good rounded tasting, but wasn't familiar with Greek wine. It's just not at all. And I came here and joined in September 23, and our board members uh quite liked a glass of wine on the pre-dinner drink. Um, we had a glass of wine, uh, and I was told that there's a Cyrus One that was your go-to. David, if you're hosting here at Costa Navarino, right in the middle of that quite expansive list that we have there as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, there's a Cyrus One. Okay. See if you like that. It's now stayed as my go-to, the Cyrus One. Fantastic. And hopefully we'll get you to sample some later.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

That'll be great, yeah. I'm looking forward to that. Um, we've had some great wine today, and we've actually just done um a little wine tasting with one of your someliers, it was great. And I didn't realise that you actually have uh a vineyard 20 minutes down the road as well, and you make your own wines.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

We do, we do, we do. We've got two different um varieties out there with the 1827 wine and the Coitile, which is uh really, really nice. Um, it's not only used inside the properties of Costa Navarino but wider across the Peloponnese, and um people really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

So it's got great stories. I mean 1827 and the Battle of 1827 um in the bay, and it was it's basically free the Greeks from um the Ottomans. There you go, yeah. Um and and also I've been to so many places, but there is the three admirals somewhere on the property. Which is a naughty game to the 1827 battle.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Totally. I mean, uh for anybody that doesn't know about 1827, please just put it in Google 1827 Navarino Battle, uh, and just have a look at the images, and you'll be just astonished that this actually took place right here in front of us. Yeah, yeah. Just try it there. Pretty much over there, yeah. Very slightly to you behind you, Neil. Yeah, and uh and every time I there's there's there's a lot of restaurants that carry the books as well, like really heavy coffee table books that you can flip through and and really learn all about that quite liberating battle for Greece that was supported by many other nations as well, and quite an audacious uh way of blocking them into the bay and forcing a surrender that means we're sitting here today, probably.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

And the and the bay is a real feature of Costa Navarino as well, isn't it? It it it's where that calmness comes in, uh, and that beautiful backdrop for the golf course, it's is sensational.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

It's a spectacular piece of land, um, and we are so blessed across Costa Navarino goes across 13 kilometres essentially, tip to tip. Uh so and different landscapes. I mean, behind us here we've got the Ionian Sea, absolutely beautiful, and then as you go to the uh area where we have the bay developments with two hotels, the Agora um public area as well, and the Bay Golf Course, it's a totally different. I mean, the we we were having dinner there last night and the water doesn't move. I think I mentioned to Andrew Mill Pond, yeah, not the place for surfing. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, yeah, no, it's incredible. So, how did you end up here? I mean, obviously, I knew you from really Monterey, I think, with working with Shepard and you know, David Shepard, you know, really. And you know, I've always been a fan of of Monterey as it was, and then we had the pleasure of having Nuno on the uh on the show. And you know, one obviously he'd been here, and now he's he's kind of running what I say, you know, to everybody's eyes, he's he's basically running Portuguese golf, you know. That that's what he's doing because his the project there is incredible. Um so so how did you decide to to move from what was an amazing project to then come to to Costa Neverina?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

I'm lucky. Uh I've had a lot of amazing projects, and um Royal Obidos was spectacular as well in Lisbon. Yeah, uh Boutique Hotel by Philippe Stark, um, the last ever designed golf course by Sevriano Balasteros. Um being that boutique niche level, we had to go really hard and demanding on the service levels, which we did. Uh that one uh European golf resort of the year in 2015, um so three years after its opening, um we invited David Shepard and SJ across to one of our uh openings just to familiarize everybody with the product. And he was pretty impressed with what we were doing there, right there, because the Algarve is the home of golf really for Portugal, and he saw what we were delivering there in the Lisbon region, and uh he remembered that and gave me a call to go to Monterey, which very proud of the time that I had there, and thankful to David for insisting I made that trip down and um uh really thoroughly enjoyed that. Again, another very niche product, uh very much in that luxury segment, um not volume-based at all. It's all about great experiences both on and off the golf course. Um, and then I got a call from what I thought was going to be akin to the Largo, so I shouldn't really say that, but it was actually the sister property which is PGA Catalunia, now known as Camaral, um, and again an amazing time there. And they're gonna have host the Ryder Cup 2031. They've got the Ryder Cup, and um they are really moving uh ahead with that very quickly. Um it always when I did leave to come here, it felt like a long way ahead that seven-year gap, and now it's it's not that far away at all, you know. So but Costa Navarino, we're sitting here. Would you have turned it down near?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

No. I don't want to leave, but I don't know about turning it down. I just definitely never want to leave. Um but no, I mean it and you had the four courses then when you were was everything here in place when everyone yeah, okay. So taking over, but they would have been pretty new then as well, the the next the last two courses.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah, the last two courses opened in 2022. So, yeah, kind of a year before you came, but yeah. Yes, yeah. Um along with the two new hotels as well. So we moved from really resort-style golf to hotels, two golf courses, as well as all the other facilities and amenities that we have. It it's totally changed the the landscape of what we have to move to four hotels, four golf courses, the logistics, the back of house logistics that are involved in that and delivering those experiences that are memorable and keeping people coming back, actually.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

It's really funny you say that. Yesterday we were we were sat on the terrace just over there having lunch, and there was uh there was a couple from Royal Wimbledon. And I saw is this your first time here? Went, no, no, this is our second time, it's it's fantastic. And then today we had a couple from Winchester. Um and I said, Oh, first time here, no, no, this is our second time, five years ago. Um and we'll definitely be back next year. And and that says a lot, right? About I mean it's stunning. It's absolutely stunning. But I didn't realise what you had here. I mean, as we've said before, pictures can say something, you can look at the website, but until you actually come here, you know, I didn't know one, how big it was, and two, the variety that you've got. I mean, 40 odd different restaurants for a start, you know, in a various plus the local Tavernas as well, which is you know we'll come on to, but you really want to uh encourage people to to support the area as well. So I was thinking it was coming to a nice resort, I didn't think I was coming to a world-class resort, and that's what's really opened my eyes, and it's the attention to detail as well. But I want to kind of start with where it began because it's really one man's vision, wasn't it? Very much so.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Um Captain Vasilis Vasilis Constantinopoulos, yeah. Man with the vision. Yeah, okay. Uh, this is his homeland. He was born and raised here. Um, very much from a uh normal background, moved into maritime and and shipping and um did very well, yeah, but always with an eye on the homeland and um the area, the region, the people, what he called home. And I think the locals at the time think he'd lost his marbles a touch when he was buying up little plots of land with this vision, and um, you know, it's take it takes a long time. Anastasia said it's taken it took him about 15 to 20 years to get all of the plots that they needed. It's all small parcels of land that are privately owned, and um, you know, uh naturally as you move down that process, some people try and add some value to it. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, the longer story shorter is created the land. I think once it opened, people really genuinely saw the impact it was really going to have to local businesses, to local people. Um, there was a comment and a note really that if you lived here and you wanted to go on to further education or something like that, or move into a workspace, you needed to head to Athens, which is four hours north. It means leaving your family, your loved ones, your friends, everything you know, and starting again. And and this vision was to this can be a hub for people to earn salaries, uh, have opportunities ahead of them. Uh, we were in the local village there in Yellowville, and you can see a lot of companies there growing and investing with us. Uh, so it it is one that's been a total development changer for the local community.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, really nice to see. And you know, so that's money, but it's also patience and time to be able to do it, and also a risk because let's let's face it, Greece is not known for its golf. Yeah, what have you got outside of of Costa Navarino? It's it's what, six, seven golf courses?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Nine across Greece, inclusive of the islands, because um they're quite understated and not in the same way we are uh here. Um, I suppose that's where the challenges begin, and you look at the evolution of of Costa Navarino, it was that challenge of Spain and Portugal for the for the shorter haul stuff, and then you've another couple of hours on, you're into the UAE, which is a strong brand in itself. Absolutely. Um, and then you've got little Costa Navarino in Greece trying to stick its hand in the air and say, we are an option, and um it's taken time, it took patience, um, but as I mentioned to you just earlier, if somebody actually comes here, they really see the value of what it is. And I think one of the interesting things, and you were talking about some of the repeaters that you've personally met on this trip, is you could come back for a second experience here, and it'd be totally varied and different from your first experience. You could have a different hotel experience. As you mentioned, we've got 40 um bars, restaurants on site, so your whole dining experience of a seven-night stay can be completely different, and that can be multiplied over numerous stays. Um, but you then get your loyal guests that go, I David, I want that room, I want these tea times.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Uh please, can you make it happen? And we do because you just you know what you like, right? It's correct. A bit like me going for a cutie, you know, tick and tick and masala, please, because I know I like it. Exactly. Very boring, but I like it exactly. Um and and also the development of the golf courses. So, like 2010, the first course was Bay Junes. Junes. Junes and that. And that was European golf design with Bernard Langer. Correct. Yeah, and so you know, Bernard Langer has got um notoriety for making you know tough golf courses. He has. Um and beautiful golf course, but it it it looks like it's a tough golf course. We haven't played it yet, but um it looked like it was quite a tough golf course. See if you got in that day earlier. Yeah, I know exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, uh yeah, you know, go uh great great work by Bernard and European golf design as well. Uh it is a challenge, but it's got some spots in it where it gives you a breather. Uh, we've got a drivable par four, some comfortable length par threes, uh some nice par fives where you can get your score back, but then there's some challenges around it as well. Um, the golf course moves from the ocean around through the local olive groves, uh circling the two hotel properties. The variety of the golf course is is really great here at the at the Dunes.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

And then what probably my favourite course that I've sort of we've had the pleasure of seeing going on all the golf courses, and the bay to me, now at 60, is the kind of golf course I'm looking to play. It's nice and wide, it looks fairly easy, but it's I mean, some of the views as well. And coming back to your point, it's so different from the dunes, and so different from the two new ones on the hill. I mean, like you feel like you're in a different place from a golf course. You think, wow, this is a whole different vista. Um right down by the water. Those those signature holes by the water, is that second on the bay is gorgeous, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Really special. I think there's two things that need to happen. Uh, having owners that play golf and understand golf, well travelled as well. Yeah. Um, understood that variety with that long picture as well of having four, potentially more golf courses in the future, having a variety of golf experiences, and we touched on a couple earlier, that probably have a very similar sort of landscape. You move to Bay from Dunes, and suddenly now you've got that still water bay in front of you. Um, it's sort of on the side of a hill, so everywhere you've got views, panoramic views into that. You've got golf holes running alongside the water, which is, you know, as Peter Baker said when during The Legends, if I miss this part, it's in the sea.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yes, look at that.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

And so that's how close you really are, you're in touching distance. Um, the car paths are very clever. Yes, they are. Which, as you exit the buggy either from a T-box or a green, it's pointing you straight down the mouth of that view. So you can probably be having a bad day on the golf course, but you're just like blown away by that spectacular uh vista that you have there. Um I think the landscape's very natural, nothing's built up around here. You see little town poking out in the distance there and things of that nature. Um, Robert Trench Owens II did a great design, it's a smaller piece of land. Um, but again, really great golf course, strong pathways, and and those views to die for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Um and the clubhouse, you know, again, kind of a and we'll come on to it a little bit later, but sustainability sustainability is really important to the whole resort. Um and we will come on to that, but but I love the fact that at the Bay Clubhouse you've got the garden rooftop and then you've got a tee on the roof that you use occasionally. And that was we we had the pleasure of standing on there today. And he I would just wish I could have bored off there because that was he's just dying to hit a drive. It was just so um inviting to be able to you know hit, hopefully. Really, not for me, a little soft fade that would have been lovely. Good story about that.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Bill Murray's playing with um Paul Laurie. Paul Laurie wants to do the baby fade that you've just spoken about. It hits the cart path three times down the left side, and he's greenside chipping for Eagle, uh, which Bill happily tells on the lover stories around the world. Uh great guy, um, a very funny guy as well. We've got the pleasure to play with. So the baby fade is the shot, and Paul Laurie will vouch for it. But that clubhouse experience, you know, um, we've got that beautiful valet at the at the start, yeah, and you see a nice looking clubhouse, but you're not prepared for what's next as you go through the entrance, and that whole bay just brings itself out in front of you. So you're on sort of the plus one level, then you make your way down to the golf area as well, and the vision and architectural design for it to fit in so flawlessly into the Mandarin Oriental, which is running alongside uh that property as well, um, really feels quite natural and very authentic. Yeah, uh, not 100% indeed.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Yeah, that and what was it a big step to then go and get you know Jose Maria Latherbell and build two golf courses? Was it always in the master plan to have kind of four, or was it the success that you had from the first two courses? And there must have been like there's a gamble, but it's kind of playing off, but we know where we're going in the future, and we'll need more golf.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

The land was there, the vision was there. I think uh really there's a a lot of infrastructure around, as you can see, and everything's done to the highest quality, even from a small cafe shop that we mentioned yesterday, uh, down there next to the the hotels. It's it's a full stone building, it's beautifully done, everything's done carefully. Um so having that sort of vision to tie everything in very well, but then also the is the business model right? You know, do you want to build four hotels and four golf courses in one go? Uh and essentially they become a little bit competitive, you know. We've mentioned clients about how then one year they stay in one hotel and one year they stay in another. Um, are you you're a competition versus yourself? So we needed to get consolidation in the two hotels and the two golf courses. We reached that number, the magic number that we needed, and again it was another suck of air to build uh a really another expansive part of the project, but the vision was already there, the land was already there, it was all about timing. Uh, the timing was Right. A lot of the development was done during COVID, so the impact on the business was less so. And now we've got four hotels and four golf courses, and that moves you from resort to destination. And that has really seen significant change, more eyes on the product. And people are going, there must be something down there. Now it's got four. There's got to be a reason, and anybody then can review.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

The gentleman from Winchester, he said, like, um, and it was almost like this is a real hidden gem. He said, like, don't tell too many people because it's lovely. You know, and he'd definitely be back next year. But but I don't think people do realize what is here. It's like golfing Greece. Okay, maybe move on. But I can tell you, and hopefully we we've made a little film and it still won't show what you've got and to the quality that you've got, but it it's special, I would tell everybody that I meet. I've already been texting people you've got to get yourself down here. It's incredible. Um the one thing I'm so impressed with, and you mention golf courses and presentation, and obviously, you know, I've been lucky enough to work with some great individuals and been to a lot of places around the world, and I know how hard it is to create consistency on a golf course, but all four of your golf courses are immaculate, I have to say. You know, there's there's no dead areas, there's the definition is it's tight, the greens are great. Everything I I think the biggest compliment is consistency at high level, which is not easy to achieve.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

It's not easy in many ways. Um, firstly, because you've gone from two golf courses to four, where now you're doubling the capacity of your agronomy team. Um, it's a credit to them, they deserve a lot of credit for what they do. Um, everybody works very closely on what they're doing to make sure that that playability feels the same. So, whilst the landscape changes, um the playability feels the same, the fairways are the same, precision cut, the roughs are all very similar. So, you don't really have to alter your game as you're moving between the golf courses. You're like, I'm ready, I know it. Um, the green speeds to be as close as we can uh all the way along. Um, they've done some really great work. We do a lot with LD, with them learning and development to make sure they understand what premium is because it's not like here they can go to a golf course down the road and go, that's better than us, worse than us, what are they doing? You know, do a bit of um uh brainstorming there. It it is all about the team that that from the top down uh delivering that really consistent uh but it's not just not on the golf course as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

So Andy and I went down to the beach this morning to get sunrise, and there wasn't a piece of litter, and there wasn't you know the old cup or you know something it it was all uh still at 6 45 in the morning walking to the beach, it was a lovely walk, and then when you go to the beach, everything was ready to go. All you needed was to put the put the umbrellas out and put the put the towels onto the benches, and the sea was immaculate, and you we we just sat there and you know put the drone up and got some amazing shots, but again, that's attention to detail. But also what I found, and this is kind of coming onto sustainability, is that the people so we've had two wonderful ladies look after us since we've been here, showed us everything, and Anastasia's been here since the beginning, like 2010. And she said, Well, I've got to stop, I've got to stop. And there was a cup on their own, she picked the cup up because of litter, and and it's something you said last night, it's like you've got to believe, and the whole sustainability programme that you put in, you said like it's probably one of the hardest to try and achieve, but you have to have the the buy-in from the staff.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Buy-in from the staff, vision from the owners, um, developing this required it had been very easy to demolish 2,000 um olive trees. They were not the time and the effort to reposition those across the destination um carefully was something extraordinary, something I've never seen or even heard of before. Um sustainability is something that everybody's pushing to try and do, but this has been in the DNA of the company since day dot. Um, anybody can visit the website, and there's really super detailed reports, way over a hundred pages since that conception, covering all areas, so it's not covering just golf, it'll cover real estate, hospitality, um, everything that that evolves around it. Um, we have a sustainability director who's very switched on and keeping his eye on us, uh, safer golf or water usage. You know, water's a huge thing across the globe right now. We're lucky to have our own resources, but he wants us to be very careful but still deliver what we've got today, which is perfectly green, uh, having come through one of the warmest summers of all time.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah, and you know, again, the figures is incredible. I mean, you've got like in staff, you've got like 175 staff in the golf golf business, but across the hotels and the and the restaurants and and maintenance and everything else that goes with the complex, it's you reckon it's like close to two and a half thousand people as well. So you've got to have that buy-in as well, haven't you?

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Totally, yeah. Um, and they do, they enjoy it, whether it's to further their career or not. But I mean, just behind us, there's a the town over there which is Pelos, it's the largest one close by with a population of 2,000. So when you're talking about two and a half thousand here, uh you really are in the homes of a lot of people. You know, you mentioned Anastasia here since 2010. Um, her sons are also working here. Uh, one of them does seasonal work over in Mykonos where he gets probably treble the money, but he has that nice season there, but he always wants to come back and be close to Mom. And what we were saying, building out this area of Messinia to be the home and heart. There's some great projects in the planning for us uh to really keep evolving that for local people and for people to come here and learn about great hospitality. Um, there's a Greek word called phylloxenia, which means hospitality, and they really get it. Uh, so you can hire in, and that part of it that just being kind and nice and understanding that customer journey is instilled, and then you've just got to train on that golf element, really, you know, and that's a massive advantage.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Yeah, no, absolutely huge. Kind of moving to the customers now as well, and where you see the future. I mean, we we talked earlier about seeing two couples. Yeah, this is a great couple's place, isn't it? I mean, it's yeah, you can see the lads coming out, but actually, you know, a group of friends, male and females, coming out, the the and it's really like that, it's lifestyle. We kind of talked about it last night. Golf is is front and central, but it's part of the lifestyle of coming to Costa Navarino with the exceptional food and beverages, the exceptional rooms, and the quality of service as well. But I think it's more driven to that, which I think is quite clever because I think you then tend to see this type of clientele that you're trying to attract. The secondary spend goes off the charts because we've seen the sparse. So the ladies definitely want to go in there while they're here, and probably a lot of the guys as well. Um, and there's a lot of other things to be able to do while you're here.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

I mean, it's inundated with opportunities for uh things to do, um, and it doesn't really matter what floats you your boat, you're probably gonna find it here with the exception you can travel a little bit further down, but we mentioned the surfing thing because the water's so calm. Um, couple strips are very, very popular, ladies' groups, really, really popular. But I'll tell you where we're really going well golfer non-golfer. Because you know, whilst that golfer's out for that four and a half hours, or if they're at one of the other courses to include the transfers, maybe five, the non-golfer has so much to do here, and they're not sort of hanging around going, what time will we be back? They are super entertained. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

And what about what I also liked about you know, maybe the golfer who plays a little bit, you thought you kind of give them here's five or six you know, credits if you like for golf, but actually, if you don't want to play, you can spend it on other amenities within the within the resort, which I think is a really clever idea as well. It's not just my budget, it's about making sure that resort you know drives revenue across all of the facilities and all of uh services.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And it's important to us, not only our own company. We were sort of saying to you that whilst we do have 40 outlets of food and beverage here, along with souvenir stores and activity stores and stuff on sea and stuff on land for you to do, um, 70% of that is actually outsourced to third parties. Yeah, they are local companies as well. So, again, they are outside but working inside and operating at Costa Navarino at the levels that we want, uh, ensuring that our guests have a wonderful time here, and it helps us to grow that wider experience that we want to achieve. Um, and the guests that you met will tell their friends, and and maybe there'll be a non-golfer in there that goes, Well, there's enough for me to do here, and and again, a visit to the website, and you'll you'll find out what the offer really is, and it is quite broad.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah, quite broad. Well, it is, it is, but but again, playing the four golf courses or being able to use the different hotels, they all have very different feelings as well, both on and off the golf course. The clubhouses have a different feeling as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Again, that variety is really, really good. Um, you know, we've got all of our hostel hotels are five-star, five-star plus, Mandarin Oriental ultra luxury level. Um, so there is a something for everybody, but again, you know, the Romanos is a very different experience to the Western. You've got the more vibrant W, so Andrew was saying he'd love the W, whereas you're a Mandarin guy, you know, so everybody. They do enjoy it. Um, there's some interesting sort of data, having done my time in Portugal and and and Spain, and understanding the golfing needs of some guests, and sometimes, like the Scandinavian countries, they they want to play unlimited golf, right? As much golf as I can do. Here, it's just one round because they know they've got so much to do after to enjoy as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

So, uh, and that's a a year-round thing. And and what is interesting as well, we had kind of had this conversation last night, is that you haven't tried to make one course better than another, but they're all the same price as well. And it's kind of you have a choice and they're all good. And now having gone around them, I kind of get that because there's there's as we had the conversation. If you go to Pinehurst, for example, it's always about number two, definitely. But you know, number four and number eight are really cool as well, and whatever. But you know, you're paying a premium for number two. Obviously, it has the US Open, and so it's slightly different, but and and some people would have been driven to like, oh, we've got to make this the best, but having the consistent it comes comes back to the quality, consistent quality consistency is is very hard to maintain, but at the end of the day we'll pay dividends, I think.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Very much so, and um if you were looking at where we sit geographically, we're not in that long weekend Spain-Portugal where you do three nights and three rounds, uh, so they are doing longer stays here, it's generally seven nights, um, but really they include five rounds of golf in that. And and the interesting thing is they'll play each course once, and then they're like on the edge with which one do I choose for the fifth one? And they can make that decision locally because uh there's no change in rate, or we need to pay a little bit more there, or that one's a little bit cheaper, or anything like that. Boggies are included, ranges included, so they don't really need to worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

That's the other clever thing, is your amenities around you know around the clubhouse, everything is it's been worked out, so the driving ranges are good, you know, they're either going uphill or downhill. Um the putting rings are close, everything's close to the first 10th T's. It's it's all very well thought out. I mean again, because it's been sort of from 2010 onwards, modern thinking and and resort uh design has has played a part, but it is very clever, I think.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Really good customer journey is so important from the minute they arrive to us to the minute they're departing back to the accommodation of choice. Um, it's something that the client really picks up on, but actually the the the standout is the fact that we will pick you up from your hotel, we'll drop you to the golf course with an hour before your tea time so you can comfortably hit balls or have some coffee and have a part and arrive at that first tea feeling ready for the day ahead of you. Um your clubs are taken from course to course, you don't move with your own golf clubs. So when you finish that round, we'll clean them down and we'll make sure they're on the buggy for you the next morning. The first time guest, he's apprehensive. What you're really gonna is this really gonna happen? Uh and it does, and you can see that sort of relief. And even the pros, you know, the the real tour pros, they're like, no, no, no, I'm taking mine back, sort of thing. But that once they get used to how slick the operation is, they're like, no, they know what they're doing. This is this is safe.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

It comes back to I think the mentality of as well is that it's I want to do it, I want to make sure it's right. You know, it's not going hard on that.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

100%. And if you're going to do it, do it well. Um, there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I'm sure AI will be able to support and make that quicker and an easier opportunity because there's a lot of cross-referencing to make sure that that golf bag goes to that course for that time. Um, it would be very easy to have a lighter version of it, sort of one uh transfer taking all the clubs across all the courses with all the bags on, but the opportunity of mistake is way too high, and that's a risk you cannot afford. Um and and the success rate is like 99.2% over 85,000 tourist rounds on the four courses. So, you know, there's the occasion where it's generally followed by the uh complimentary gift tag uh that we give to the guests that we have an understanding right that bag is for that golf course, they're checking against the T-sheet. Sometimes some people take it off, and that'll be where you suddenly go, you're photing to another course, go, blue tight this bag. Uh yeah, yeah, we've got one here, yeah, yeah. So it's always solvable, but the guests just love that, right? My golf day is over, and they just end up on a very nice shuttle service back to their accommodation. They can carry on with their day very, very easily and simply without gotta take my clubs back to the room and I've got to do these.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

And again, having the lights of 59 Club giving you that data and that sort of mystery shopper and encouraging. I mean, we've had this conversation on a number of podcasts, and it you you have to live and die by your data now. It's it's so important, especially if you're running this and and then showing actually what is happening. And if you've got that kind of success rate, pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

You hit the nail on the head really in the earlier comments about consistency, you know. So, whilst 59 are really helpful to deliver data, we want them to specify what that guest experience was on each golf course. So we back of the house can actually measure are they delivering that consistent? Does my client feel they're getting the same experience on on all four golf courses? And we're really close to within uh nothing percent there of getting that there. Um it's really engaging, you know, to have that external company sort of benchmark you, um, and you're not just the moaning manager sort of going like this isn't good enough, and you need to change that. They can actually see in the raw data which they get, um, they can understand where they sit in the uh the table of of other golf resorts and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

So that's the bit I like with with 59. It's like you're it's eggs with eggs, you know, apples with apples, oranges with oranges, whatever you want to say. But you feel like, oh well, of course we wouldn't be able to do that, but you're being judged against some of the best in the world. So if you're if you're getting those results against and you can hold yourself up against the best in the world, makes the staff feel good.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Makes everybody feel good. They're proud of it, then they rightly deserve it, and um because they do work hard and they are very attentive to detail, and uh they did win some really great awards um uh uh just over a year ago, and they're keen to do that again. Um and you're up against, you know, we have a large scale operation, whilst it's not huge in terms of volume, it's you know, it's 85,000 tourism rounds across four golf courses, um, but you are up against some of the ones that are more besmoked, smaller, the opportunity to fail, doing less rounds, um, they have the opportunity, they might be doing 15-minute tea times, they have that opportunity to be more uh on point, and we are challenging or not above some of those, and that's really pleasing.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

So you've got two things that uh people will now know about Horston Amarina. One, you've got consistency of golf courses, you've got great facilities, but also the service levels are up there as well, and it can be backed up by the data. So there's no barrier to entry now, is there?

SPEAKER_02 39:30

There isn't. And back to that point as well, if we can we're we're blessed. It's the most beautiful landscape I think I've ever seen, and again, you said you you had high expectations and we've surpassed that, and that's probably the natural beauty of the landscape for sure. Um, the hospitality, the variety, um, and that variety of golf uh you know, when you've got four golf courses and they're all very different and different experiences, but play really nicely, um, that's that's well classed.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

And then again, two two kind of things I want to sort of wrap up before we go to our set you know, our last couple of questions. But we went last night to the taverna down in the river, and and you said to me when we were chatting about coming over, you know, it's really important. And and I forget what the name of the town is because I've had so many names thrown at me over the last couple of days. What's the name of the town? Well, you've got Yellowver, Yellow between which we were there last night, yeah. Yellow, which is beautiful. Stunning. This it's kind of the strip, you know, it's like but it but it's so nicely done. And the restaurant and the food was incredible. And what you said is like we've actually got an account here, so it's not like we're trying to drive everybody into the resort, it's actually it's a bit like saying, you know, we want the community to be here, and as long as you can live up to the standards that we require based on what you're serving, then we're gonna embrace you and we're gonna encourage you, our guests, to come and see you.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

For sure. I mean, you want a Greek experience. You're here in Greece, and um people are experiencing that for the first time, or even the second time, as the guests you mentioned, and as we grow and and and people are experiencing it for the first time, they want that authentic experience, and it is that promenade there uh is really authentic Greek. Um, the cuisine is authentic Greek, it's high-end, there's there's 13, if I'm not mistaken, restaurants that you can choose from along there. You probably won't miss. Um, there's some obvious ones that we use more so than others, but we're encouraged as a commercial team as well to uh if you've got site visits, make sure they get out, take them there, and that's why we do have an account. And then the the town further on, which again, if you'd have made that plane one day earlier, we'd have got Urantipilos, which is another really great spot there. Again, uh it's got that little market square there, very traditionally Greek. Everybody's sitting in the street enjoying either a coffee or a beer or a Slovaki, um, and you can feel really part of that, and and that is pretty much money can't buy. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

It's a home experience. It was it was so relaxing last night sitting there, yeah, worrying if we were going to get here, and then we did, and it was like, you know, Andy and I were like, this is cool, this is cool. Um and then the and the other thing is you're not stopping here either. You know, there's a lot of projects on site, but there's a map, you know, major projects in the future with making sure that you can get here quicker when you land, development of the airport to make it, you know, taking it in from a private perspective. So again, in years to come, not only will you have a better experience when you land, but you will also have a quicker experience um getting here as well. So, again, understanding what your difficulties are, and then I'm guessing getting partners, including government, to be able to literally move mountains to make that happen.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

It takes time, yeah. It takes trust. Yeah. Um, but they've seen what we've delivered across the 16 years, they've seen the impact it's had on the local community, and there is some really good investments into the airport. The airport uh is a military airport that's used for commercial use, but you know it's not a powerhouse, it's not a faro, it's not a uh Malaga. Um I mean, literally, you can see your driver as you wait for your bags is quite small. There is a super project to evolve that and it will be done phased. Uh, we know the challenge really for us. If you said David, what's your A1 challenge commercially? Would be access. You know, um the UK flights sort of start in light in April and they're pretty much done by October. This would be a great destination in March. This this is sensational golf and really is uh a great spot to be. We need those flights, and that will be a real changer, and that will then hopefully progress us into being a 12 month operation, which will be great then for real estate guests. There'll be more life, more vibrant uh things of that nature for them, um, and we'll be able to hold a lot more people uh that are on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

This is exciting for you. Personally, as well, and seeing that and being part of that, and also maybe another golf course as well. We have the LAN. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Again, the timing is is super important. Uh, when do we see that? We're working every year with a another PL further ahead, um, like three to five years out, which isn't a pure financial PL, it's more about capacities as well. So, when is it that we need to start to implement that um based on membership growing, based on um access to the hotels and that usage growing? Uh, what is that key date? And we need to count back pretty much three years from there. Um, sign up with an architect, he draws out a master plan, and really, if that takes a year, you've got a two-year build to the golf course being open. So that longer vision and counting back is sort of where we're at at the moment. Identifying dates and times and uh what experience that will be. Will that be a membership club? Will it be different in some way, or will we continue doing what we want to do here?

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Which is again exciting and brilliant, yeah. You know, moving forward. And then we we come on to our last two questions. Um if you won the golf lottery, and you kind of have here in a way, if you won all the money in the world, but you could only spend it on golf, what would you spend it on and why?

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Super question, that one's gonna test me a little bit. But um, you said I've won the golf lottery by working here. This is an expansive job. Um keeping your eye on all four is is is something that you need to do and paying attention. We've got very nice guests on all four venues, and you need to be there from a PR perspective to say hi and how was your experience and in the evenings as well. Uh, so I'd probably love to be a resident here. Yeah, then I can enjoy what the guest really does.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

And that Mandarin Oriental, and some of the you know, when you walk into that, it's that's so relaxing. That's the one thing I realized that was like, wow, I just walked in and I feel so much more relaxed just walking in, let alone being here, if I could afford it for a week.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

And their launch of the Mandarin Oriental residencies now um will be something spectacular. That that's going to be a really so I'd like one of those.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

That would be nice. And then final question, and some people get emotional with this as well, but it it's you'd got one game of golf left in your life. Where would you play it? Who would you play it with, and why?

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Really good one. Okay, I'm going to go for Pine Valley. Well, I've been lucky enough to play it, it's an amazing place. So have I. Um I've played it once. And I'd probably you could probably name it's my last game of golf.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

That's gonna be your last game of golf.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

I probably won't enjoy it with my friends.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Yeah. I'd probably take Nunu. Yeah. Yeah. Can't play golf, but he's gonna be good at playing golf. He didn't tell me that, he said he could play golf. He can get it around. And he's getting better.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

When time hasn't got enough time.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

He was gonna say, both of you don't have enough time.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

I'd take Noxie from ETD. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

He's good fun, and we apart from he's an Arsenal fan, it'll be okay, you know. Correct. Everybody has their flaws. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

He has a lot of flaws, and that's one of them. Um, we lock horns quite a lot, and he's he's a good banter. And then my old assistant, probably Flavio Papa at uh at Camaro, is now leading that Ryder Cup project. And yeah, a real good friend of mine, and uh really pleased to see carrying on the ladder now and doing great work there at Camara.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Fantastic. David, it's been an absolute pleasure not only speaking to you, but uh enjoying the full benefits of Costa Neverino. Um, Andy and I, when we we haven't I haven't worked with Andy before, so you know we got to know each other four hours on a plane basically, while we didn't we didn't go anywhere. But we've we've totally been blown away by the hospitality, um, your staff, I mean everybody we've met have been incredible. Um and we're looking forward to an amazing dinner. Uh and then it's just a pity that hopefully we'll we'll have to stay for another weekend, although he's he's got a function on on Saturday. But if we miss the plane and we can come back, we'd love to. David, very welcome. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Absolute pleasure. Don't be a stranger, both of you.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Cheers. Thank you very much. Cheers.