SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to the final episode of series three. I can't believe we're three series done. It seems like yesterday it's probably 18 months since we did our first one. Delighted to be at Prince's Golf Club, which I haven't been to apparently since 2008. And I'm delighted to be joined by Richard Payne. Richard, hello. Hi Neil, how are you doing? Yeah, very good, thank you. We've known each other a long time through really John Bushel and Sports Marketing Surveys. Yes. And you're always there, always busy, always looking at things to do, and I've sort of followed your career with interest, and it's always on the up. And we're going to talk about a number of things, and we always talked about wine, but you I what caught my eye about coming on the podcast was you moved to Levy. Correct. And I work with them at Tottenham Hotspurts. So I was intrigued to find out what your new role was, and we are going to find that out. But as always, we're going to start with wine. So today, as our last bottle, and I'm really pleased to say that Gusborne have agreed for Series 4 that they're going to continue the sponsorship. Congratulations. So today we have uh a Blanc de Blanc, uh 2020 Gusborne. So it's pure Chardonnay. 2020 was a good year. Let's see what you think. Let's go. Cheers. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Very nice. Very nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

And it's always in the morning. I mean, what are we? It's probably a bit late for us. It's about 11 o'clock. 11 o'clock, yeah, absolutely. It's perfectly acceptable. Very good. So tell us about this story, because I when you told me about it, I thought that would be great for the podcast because it sort of sums up everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Well, it was a really interesting question to start with, right, Neil. So as soon as you say what's a wine story, if you've worked in the golf industry, you've got quite a few wine stories, and John Bushel being a good example of many a bottle of wines, including his favourite Chateau Moussard, over many years. But I thought, well, actually, what is a more personal story to me? And the one that that jumped to mind was actually on the day that I proposed to my wife. And there was quite a nice full circle story in that, in that I proposed to her at the South Lodge, which Danny Peccarelli is an owner of and was a previous guest of yours. So um not a bad place to propose either. Oh beautiful hotel, absolutely. Um but I was very fortunate. My wife and I are big fans of uh cooking programs, and we were watching uh the Great British Menu, and one of the chefs on there, Max Gillen, happened to be the head chef at uh South Lodge, at the pass at South Lodge at the time, and he did a dessert on there, which I thought, right, that because it was in a box, I can hide the ring in the box. That's perfect. So put um into the South Lodge and booked into the pass, and just before going for supper, they said, Oh, why don't you go down to our wine cellar? Which I'm not sure is there anymore. You know, it still is. Oh, it is still there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

We did uh we did a podcast with Wi-Fi, innit?

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah, yeah, oh amazing. Yeah. Um so we went down to the wine cellar and they had one of those um temperature controlled dispensing units, and so we were testing different wines. My wife's view was just, oh, we're just picking a wine for dinner this evening. So uh we tested these different wines, ended up settling on a um an Australian, I think it was a semillon sauce, probably pronounced that awfully, uh, called coat d'or. Um, and yeah, so we had that throughout the evening. I was so nervous. Um I don't think I remember tasting any of it, but it clearly helped with a bit of Dutch courage. Um ended up obviously proposing to my wife. The fact I'm saying wife means she said yes, which is which is a six sense. Um and then we ended up ordering a crate afterwards and uh opening a bottle for the first effectively ten years of our um um married life.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, fantastic. Oh, that's a nice thing. I think that's a really nice story. But it but it also kind of highlights wine and golf. There's always stories around golf and wine and memories, yeah, which is so important.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Absolutely, and you mentioning Chardonnay grape in there. Yeah. Just been away to the US to play a bit of golf, and we let's just say we uh yes, we we were very fortunate in the golf courses we played, but uh we had a fair few drops of Chardonnay in the evening as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, that was perfect. That kind of leads nicely onto my first question because obviously sports marketing surveys they looked after all sports, and it was all basically data and seeing really what was developing in their different sports and who was paying for what, how many people were participating, whatever. But that probably took a lot of skill to understand the relationships and basically what your job is is trying to find what people want and then delivering a strategy towards helping them grow or making more money.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Absolutely. Yeah, and I guess understanding people involves spending time with people. I think there is uh I guess maybe a slight fallacy that the data tells you everything. You need the data, you need to understand the data, you need to get into the insights, but how that then translates into something actionable and something that can actually pull at the heartstrings or really move the needle in terms of behaviour and and action also involves a bit more of a human interaction. So making sure you're spending time with people. And then, in terms of that client relationship, getting them to trust what you're saying, especially if they're not overly data literate. Yeah, you need to be able to spend that time with people and and discuss things on a level which they they can relate to. Because when did you start that role? So I started at uh sports marketing surveys, which then became sporting insights in um April of 2008.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Uh 2008, okay, fine. So back in those days, data wasn't, certainly in golf, wasn't the be-all and end all, you know, like today, where you've got everybody wants to look at that data, whether golf club, you know, how far the ball goes, what does ball heads be, all that kind of stuff is yeah, um, down to as we discussed with Simon Wordsworth, you know, 59 Club and providing data for for managers on you know what they need to do to improve.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, oh gosh, um absolutely. When we were doing our first survey, or the surveys when I first joined, and bear in mind sports marketing surveys was established in 1984. Yes, correct. That the data that was being collected at that point was still, we would have market researchers on the 18th green with a bit of pen and paper, and I remember very clearly some of my early questions that I was analysing was what percentage of golfers had the internet? Yeah, so it wasn't a case of they had this, as you said, this this volume of data that it personally they were using or operators were using or the manufacturers were using. We were still really getting that very basic data. So it was who's using what, what did they like about the colourways in the Pro Shop, and and it was more understanding that I guess that that that lens of what is helping those simple decision um factors, but then getting that data and getting it in a robust sense where that again that you can trust, that's where you can get that competitive advantage.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

And I guess those relationships to try and find what they want helps when you play golf. Because you're a good golfer as well. So do you you know it it had you always been a good golfer and wanted to go into golf specifically, or was it sport in general? What what kind of made you look at the survey side of things?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Um the I fell into the market research. I'd I'd always been numerical and enjoyed maths at school, went to university, and then ended up just falling into a market research company down in Winchester.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Um, but I moved on to the Procter and Gamble account and I was testing um mother's reactions to nappies, effectively, and decided that that that wasn't quite the career path I wanted to take. So I got super, super fortunate and I typed in um sports research into Google. Um sports marketing surveys came up, golf research executive was the job being um advertised at the time. So Marry both a to your point of been playing golf probably since I was about 10 years old. So Marry, uh a passion of mine with with a job and a career, and yeah, I guess the rest is history in that in that front.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Oh, that's good. Um and and obviously working across multiple sports, that then really helps, I'm I'm guessing, to look because I'm thinking of sponsorship, you know, where you look at it and you think, where's the ROI on sponsorship for golf tournaments? I mean, a lot of people have asked me that over the over the years. I've been involved with some big ones, which is which has been great, especially sort of Barclays Scottish Open I I can think of. And that was really interesting because you know, from a retail perspective, there was no Barclays in Scotland. Yeah. Um and it was Barcat, Barclays Capital, who sponsored it. And it was for a very different reason than getting you know more people going through Barclays, it was actually looking after the people who were really dealing with the money for big institutions. So it's it's a it's uh there's so many facets of of looking at data and really understanding what people want, especially from a sponsorship perspective, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Absolutely, and I guess that's really where sports marketing surveys at the time, so back in the early 2000s, came into its own. So sports marketing surveys at that time created the very first valuation of sponsorship. Now that was a pure metric of understanding eyeballs and then an advertising equivalency value. So all of these the the Barclays of the World or the FNCGs who were spending on sponsorship understood that basic media advertising transaction. We pay X to get on this advert, that should deliver X amount of eyeballs, especially if you're doing it around the right times of the viewing periods of the evening, and therefore we should get this in ROI. In sponsorship, to your point, it there's there are so many different reasons why someone would get into sponsorship, but then there was never a set metric. So this was at least trying to translate it that within a boardroom, marketing director or commercial director had both side by side, and they say that's what the sponsorship value is, this is what my advertising value is, and therefore I can set my budgets accordingly. I think as that has evolved, there is no longer also sorry, the volume play is still one, and if you are a mass volume FMCG company, actually you just want to get in front of as many eyeballs as possible, so that's why you see a lot of those being more aligned to like football and the mass participation sports. Within something like golf, there is then looking at that subset of who is the audience, who are the golfers? So we know that they are higher affluence, still trending more towards male, but there is a lot of corporate. So, your point there with the Barclays, absolutely, there is can we get more people into a Barclays bank, but are we actually triggering, are we relating to those decision holders who are then placing those much bigger transactions because they're doing it from a corporate side?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

And it was really interesting that I mean there was a number of factors, it wasn't just that they decided to move from Lot Loman, but you know, going to the Pro Am dinner uh on the Wednesday night, pretty much all of the guys there's like if you invite me next year, Bob, to Bob Diamond, who was the chief executive, Barcat then went on to run the whole of Barclays. But you know, you pretty much got our money again, you know. Um, really looking after us, it's a great spot, whatever. And then and it was really interesting they moved Castle Stewart because they wanted, you know, the players wanted links before the open, so they got that tick, but it didn't fit Barclays. Right. And so they are it lasted one year with Barclays, and then obviously other other sponsors came came in. So it's really interesting to see that they actually a big part of that was the venue.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Absolutely, but that's the same with any corporate hospitality and cor corporate hosting. It's nice to treat your clients, but you're doing it for a reason. Yeah, um and it that that it's often not cheap, yeah. So you do have to look at it as an ROI. And again, going back to that level playing field, I've got budget to spend here, here, and here, which one's gonna deliver me the most bang from my buck? Yeah. Um, and that is just becomes part of that overall spending mix.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah, it's fascinating to me how they look at that and and understand working with those big bands and and working with the chief executives on that as well was really interesting. And I and I was really interested because obviously I knew what you did, done it for a long time, and I just thought, you know, John's getting older that you would you would sort of go into that role of of running the company. And then all of a sudden, about a year ago, 18 months ago, I see you've gone to work for Levy. I was like, I think I'm working for a catering company, and I you know, and I literally had sat down for a year next to um the Levy representative at Tottenham Hotspur, um, planning the new stadium. Yeah, and it was fascinating to understand all that stuff. But why have you gone from sport into restaurants? So that was quite an interesting point of view, and then literally this year I saw that you were involved with Libera. Correct. And the experience was obviously as I knew it at St Andrews with the old course experience. So I thought I've got to pick up the phone and go, okay, what are you doing? And what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, absolutely fair point. And as you say, having been in the industry for almost 20 years, going from something which was a very understood scenario that people knew who I was and where I was from, um, to take that leap, both from a personal perspective of being quite scary, um, but from an industry lens, sort of why is he doing that? Um, absolutely nothing to do with Sporting Insights or John Bushel, uh, loved loved the agency, and I'd still classify John as very much one of my best friends. But uh an opportunity came up, quite simply, Neil. Um, so Charlie Buck, who's the chief executive of Libera now, was the chief commercial officer of Levy. He had been in the golf industry previously and actually had been a client, and we'd we'd stayed in conference. We knew each other. We knew each other. And um Charlie joined Levy about a year before um I came on board with the idea or with the challenge to bring together our commercial brands that sit outside of the catering arm. So Levy, for those who don't know, is the sports and entertainment arm of the Compass Catering Group, so the the largest um service caterer within the world. We operate across the world, across stadia and entertainment and conference venues, as you say, as we do with Spurs, effectively providing the catering both from concourse all the way through up to the premium suites in in one of the stadium.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

And and actually invested in that very much, you know, with SOP. So it wasn't it was monetary, but also we were delayed and you know, keeping the staff on. That's what I always remember, you know, chefs and service managers, because you think the number of people that leave me employed to run, you know, what is you know, looking after 62,000.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Oh gosh, absolutely. And the the I guess the vision of the company was that if we are already a venue partner in that area, why can't we be a 360-degree venue partner? So over the course of several years, we've slowly acquired different commercial um assets and agencies, the biggest one currently being Keith Prowles. So Keith Prowse's premium hospitality, premium experiences company, working with everyone from Wimbledon to the Oval to Edgebaston to promote, to sell, but then to also help create those premium experiences. We have Gulliver Sports Travels, which are primarily a cricket and rugby sports travel company, but we do work across everything from F1 to football as well, and we're taking volume. So we I think we took close to 4,000 people from the UK across to Australia for the ashes, for example. We have a conference and events business called Line Venue Portfolios, we have a small hotels chain called the Venues Collection, we have the Experience Golf, which I'll touch on a bit more in a bit, and then we, as of um end of February this year, acquired a brand activations agency called iLuca, who work a lot with uh the IOC and have recently just done a lot with FIFA and um a couple of the sponsors and brands of the World Cup.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

People will be interested at the moment, then?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yes, yes, it's been quite a hot topic at the moment, isn't it? Yeah. Um so the the idea there being is that we have this suite of brands that can, if we went to a rights holder or we went to an event organizer, we can help you commercialise your event as well as help you provide that service provision with the catering. So now we can actually we are a 360 provider. The reason that we then launched Livera is that actually saying that we are all Levy, we were getting that exact response as you said, is oh, but you're a catering company. And we're like, well, we are, but we have all of these. And so to make that proposition a lot cleaner and a lot smoother, anything that's commercial that sits outside of food and beverage effectively sits under Livera now. Live Era being L-Y-V-E, so an anagram of Levy, taking it into the new era.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

So that's that's where that's part part of the brand story with Livera, which I was very fortunate to be part of that team, sort of coming up with the new rebrand, but very much still linked with the Levy, all the ethos, our four Ps in terms of what we stand for. That is who we are as a company. Um, and yeah, when I joined, it we we were a collection of brands, but we needed to get something more that actually started taking one plus one to equal three, if not four and five, as opposed to everything operating in a sino. Yeah, um, and it was just very, very fortuitous for me personally that actually when I got under the hood of everything, we had this brand called the Experienced Golf.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

As you say, was called the Old Course Experience, then moved on to the Experienced St Andrews. But then we what we realized is that we as a luxury golf tour operator shouldn't just be doing St Andrews. We're bringing a decent volume of golfers to St Andrews every year. Those golfers want to experience the rest of Scotland, but once they've done that, they want to go to Ireland, they want to come to England, they want to go to Wales, they want to go further afield. So we rebranded to the experienced golf to really just make that proposition clearer so that we can start offering those trips wider and further afield.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Um, when we met her a few weeks ago, just to sort of talk through through the podcast, um it was interesting that you kind of described it as trying to get them all to work together. But I was thinking from a customer's perspective, and where you can build great entertainment not just with golf, but what else you've got. So the opportunity to go to Wimbledon, for example, you've got maybe Centre Court on a Saturday and then go up to St Andrews on the Sunday, so you've got the best of both worlds, and then perhaps come back to the O2 and watch a concert. Absolutely. You know, and I think that for customers, they don't realise they can do that necessarily in a one-stop shop. That's because it's not been offered before. Is it I was gonna say, is anybody else really doing that?

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Certainly not in a golfing space that was. Absolutely, I think there I think eyeballs have started switching to it, and I think this comes back to that experience economy as opposed to it just being you're going to play golf. Everything is becoming slightly more expensive now. So everything you want that more that that experience, and I that's the key thing with Liveira is that we say that we're delivering memorable moments for you. We're creating the frame for you to come and live these experiences live. Now, if those experiences, and as a golfer, and as yourself, you said about Spurs, we know that we like other things than just golf. You shouldn't just pigeonhole someone into one particular thing. So that exact example that you gave come to you through us, there is a feasibility to which we could have you go into Ascot, to Silverstone, to Wimbledon, playing golf at Sunningdale, at Burtdale, then up to St Andrews, watching the open and playing the old course the following week. It's pretty good, isn't it? I mean, it's powerful it's a proposition which we hope will have um will will resonate with the our our audience.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And when we were speaking, you you sort of again that comes back to looking at the hotel offering as well. And you know, you were chatting to Danny Peccarelli, you know, for for exclusive hotels, which is great, you know, to come down south, and then you've probably got marine and lawn, you know, we've we've So you know, seeing their hotels from a golf perspective as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

It's that offering that one-stop shop. The one thing that we've discovered or that that we know and our data keeps telling us is that the the more frictionless we can make an experience, the better that enjoyment is for our customers. So if we can take care of everything, so we we have our own fleet of uh Mercedes Vianos and different luxury coaches, we do have these relationships with wonderful hotel providers, so we have now formed a partnership with the exclusive collection. And that's even as simple as when people, especially our US audience, are flying into Heathrow or Gatwick, having Pennyhill Park or the South Lodge so close that they no longer have to immediately get a transfer up to Scotland or to Ireland. They can come, stay and play some of the great golf courses. Play those golf courses, or come down here, play Royal St. George's and Princes before then flying up and having their fix in in Scotland or in Ireland.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Or or maybe also, I don't think I'm just thinking here, is that it gives you a 12-month option as well, because really the experience at St Andrews is is really summer. Correct. You know, literally you can as I said to Philip, you know, you you turn the lights off, come 31st of October. It's just really for locals to use it. But you know, often those places can't afford the type of prices that visitors can, and secondly, you know, people don't want that kind of offering as well. So it's very much the the American traveller. But we kind of touched on then if you sort of brought in football, for example, um, or American football, what could you do? Certainly from a Tottenham perspective, where you know, because they have American NFL, um golf, stay, again, then London and then Constance, you know, with the O2 and everything else. So it it's probably something because because again, in my research, it looks like people want to have shorter uh vacations, but more often.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, I guess that that that still comes down to that short haul, long haul piece and the accessibility of airport and how easy that is. So, for example, someone from New York can easily fly to London in just over six hours, and that I mean, you can drive that in especially in the US, just to get from city to city. So, to them, that becomes very accessible. Yeah, so they may then be looking at those shorter trips coming into London, only playing the one round of golf, but wanting to go to football or something else. Um, when they are coming, typically still for a golf break, we find that they are coming for closer to sort of eight to ten days and wanting to experience more golf. Yeah. Um, but absolutely, the more that you can do, especially if they're bringing non-golfing partners, the more that you can layer in whiskey tasting, the more that you can add additional Michelin star dining. That then becomes a reason for them to actually create those longer stays and selfishly spend a bit more with us.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah. And it we we use this word sporttainment, which um which I think is quite a good word because it's it's not just about sport now, it's being entertained, it's and this is where again grapes and greens was kind of born in the fact that sitting on a terrace after golf, and then you kind of chat about what other interests you've got. It evolves around golf, and then it evolves around having a chat around wine, but then all the ideas come out, and like, oh, I'd love to do that. Oh, that would be great if we could do that. And basically, what you've got there is the opportunity to do those things in small packages. You know, I mean, around so I said, for example, to to Philip Allen, you know, if you did look at Northwest, that might be a better 12-month opportunity based on the fact that you've got a number of premiership opportunities, you know. So, and the US loves the Premier League, so the opportunity to come in, still play golf if you wanted to, but it's just a secondary. The main thing is is maybe the Premier League, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

That's yeah, and we're very as as Levy, we're very fortunate in that we've just won the contract for Old Trafford. Oh, amazing. Um so again, that that link will be very strong for us. Yeah, um, we are incredibly well placed to offer golf as an addendum to a trip or a priority as a trip. And I guess across our brands, again, it's now come and work with Live Era. You don't need to worry about which brand you're working with, come and work with us as a group. Yeah, just tell us what you want, and we'll curate that that experience for you. And I think sport entertainment or sporttainment is a is a great word, yeah. But that's really how we take sport to the masses as much as anything, as well. So it's that crossover, and you see that with the the drive to survive or the full swing, yeah, it's how we're trying to make our sports more popular to the masses.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Comes lifestyle, you know, absolutely. And and also it's not about having possessions. I think coming out of the pandemic, it's like life's short, right? So I want to go and do stuff, I want to see stuff, and if I can do it in you know, bite sizes or long sizes, you know, whatever you want to call it, if you can give me the options, I'm gonna look for that because I actually want to go and do things with my money rather than you know potentially buy pictures and stick them on a wall.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

And where better to do that than somewhere like a trip to the old course, right? Correct. We we do an annual um father and son tournament in April, and I was very fortunate. This was my first year, I went up to that, and I gave the welcome address, which we would we did at the new Swoken Loft in the Old Course Hotel. Beautiful sight overlooking 17 and 18, sun was setting, and genuinely I gave my address. I hope he wasn't crying because of what I said, but I sat down and there were a father and his son were there, flown over from California, and he simply said, I didn't think I'd ever get to experience this by myself, let alone with my son. And to be able to do that and know that we had laid on this weak itinerary for them to play Dumbarney, Kingsbarns, Carnusti, play the new course and the old course, finish on the old course, we get everyone measured up for kilts, bagpipes playing, that that that experience. And to him, spending that money on that, he will treasure that forever. He might have been able to buy a new car, yeah, but actually that will be a moment that he will treasure forever, and that's that's what more people are thinking about that, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

You know, since the pandemic, I think it's not about what you have, it's what you experienced. Yes. That's very powerful now, and I think more people are looking at that, yeah, and actually going to vineyards, going to distilleries, going to the golf courses, going to the games, because it's that about that bonding, whether with friends, wives, with family generally, fathers and sons, as you say, it's massive. And I think golf is is really the glue there, though, isn't it? Correct. You know, if you can play golf, you can all play golf, we can't all play football. Yes. You know, we can't all play rugby, but we can go and watch it, but we can all play together is golf, and that's the one denominator.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Well, that's it. So that trip I was saying, come to Wimbledon or come to wherever, you you can't then go and grab a racket and play centre court. But next year with the open going to St Andrews, you can watch that final pass on Sunday, and we have tea times that following week, so the stands will still be up, so we can have people walking the footsteps of the greats that they have just witnessed playing, and almost recreate those moments. I mean, it's golf golf is so special for that. And being here at Prince's, we've got Walker Cup in 2030, as you mentioned earlier. Again, it's that how do we experience these moments that people who are far better than us with a club in hand also do, but have our own enjoyment in doing so?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, where do you see you know your role in in like five years' time? We've talked about what you're doing, what you've got, kind of what you're trying to do, where does it go to? Where do you see the future, do you think, of of Live Era and Sporttainment, really? You know, what where where do you see that going?

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Well, I think Livera in itself, we need to spend uh at least the the immediacy growing our brand awareness. We are in in our suite of brands, we offer an international um set of packages, but we're not known internationally. We're very even the the individual brands are very well known within the UK, but we need to grow that awareness. As we grow that awareness, there'll be a natural expansion as we then open different offices around the world as well. So Australia being a very good example, Levy do all the catering for the Australian Open and the tennis. We within our golf side are now starting to look at how we can put packages together, again, very much tied with wine as well, in terms of that, so Great Barrier Reef or coming down to the play the Melbourne Sandbelt, but then tying in those experiences. As and when those start pieces start knitting together, then the natural thing there will be for us to have boots on the ground and start expanding in that sense. And we're looking at all the geographies to which we can do that now. Um, Singapore being another one, we we already send people to Singapore Grand Prix, we have links with the golf courses there. So, how can we start tying those packages together? So, as the the the the natural almost evolution of what we're doing in terms of packages starts to take place, we will then put boots on the ground there to just expand our offering. But everything to do with that classic one plus one has to equal three, otherwise, you can just go to different agencies. Our USP is that we have these different suites of assets that we can put together and make it seamless for people.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yeah. And then that's really interesting as well, because talking to Neil Howie about McLaren, and you know, you know, it's like where do you fit within the McLaren group? And obviously, you've got, and I can't remember what what the what the tribe is, but the what they call what they call them, but you know, you've got the masses, then you've got the very exclusive with the automobile side of things, and then golf kind of fits just sort of three-quarters of the way up there. Um, but that brand then transcends into so it's transcending into golf, but then it's travel, and the reasons that people are going to see Formula One in different parts of the world, and what you've just highlighted is well great golf courses in Miami. Yeah, great course and the Formula One in Singapore, and you know, so I think that's a great opportunity for you making three, is that there are so many things around the big sporting events, again, sport aimment, is that you're going primarily to see one, but actually you can do a lot more within the time you're there. Because what the you know, was it two hours for a race? Yes, you know, and it's okay, it's a bit longer for a for a day at the golfing. Um, but generally, and again for for the tennis, it might be an afternoon, but you can still still play golf in the morning kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah, I mean again, it's that experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

And I think brands as well, you know, brands will pick up on that because that they they want to cross over, and everybody seems to want to get into golf at the moment as well. So, again, with you having the experience and the home of golf, that's gotta be very powerful because you've got that brand.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

We have a very, very long-standing and strong relationship with St Andrews Links Trust, and we work closely with the guys there, guys and girls there. Um, and that's that will always be for the experienced golf's perspective, the the jewel in the crown of what we can offer. But to the earlier point, you don't go to St Andrews or an individual doesn't go to St. Andrews every year. No. It's it might be once every three years. So what can we do to bolt on to make sure that they become our customer year-round every year, as opposed to we're either a one and done or we see them again in a few years' time? And that is that that sport aimment, that that link with the other assets that we have access to, really gives us that avenue and that reason to s to continue talking to them.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

How do you think your past position has helped you now in the position you're at? By looking at data. We we highlighted, I think it was quite a good example about what clothing you might want to give, you know, and it was basically down to data because you you kind of looked at it and well, I'm not going to force it on you, but the data says this. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah, um data permeates everything that we do at Levy. So we have our own in-house uh data and insights agency called E15 Insights, but we also then do use uh external agencies as well. So I have commissioned Sporting Insights a couple of times to look at the data. Ultimately, we are dealing with feelings and emotions and that experience. We want to make sure that whenever someone comes to a Live Era experience, they get the goosebump moments, but there is a lot of numbers and data that underpins making sure that that experience is correct. Within Wimbledon, for example, there's I don't know if you've ever been to our treehouse facility. I haven't. Well, yeah, anyway. So it's built on the lawn, um, just the other side of the road from the the outside of the championships. Guaranteed seat access to either centre or or court one, but within the lawn and the facility, there there are different different areas that you can go to make sure that the the experience is tailored to what you want. So if you go to the tree house, which is the top floor, we have a slide that takes you down. Outside in a little garden, there's a little stream out there that if you get too hot you can put your feet in just to cool down. There's an old sweet shop there. So it's making sure that all of those points are are emotive, I guess is the key word there. But a lot of that to get to that point has also then been underpinned by the data and the research and the feedback that we're getting to say, actually, next year we'd quite like to have this, or this year that wasn't quite right, and we make sure we analyse that data and we tweak it. And that's exactly the same as we're doing with the golf. We know our St Andrews product is absolute premium. I challenge anyone to come to St Andrews to play an old course experience with us, and not to say it's the best golf trip that they can have. That doesn't mean we're resting our laurels within St Andrews, but then we ask them, well, where else might you want to go? What else do you want? And then we're trying to tailor those experiences as as we expand. And a lot of that does include going to wineries, it does include going for whiskey tours, so it's learning, so it's still using the numbers, using the data, but it's now giving that to my teams and actually us going out there and actioning it.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

And that must be quite hard because that's a lot of data for a lot of and six companies as well. If you're doing it for you know for the whole group, you know, that can't can't happen quickly.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Yeah, I I I I that's saying that I do everything. We've got we've got very, very strong teams in the house with a lot of expertise. Um, so I might cast an eye over the the top of some of the areas and see where there's some some wins in terms of bringing things together. But in terms of the experts within each of the the different companies, they know how to use that data, they know how to improve their immediate products. So, really, my task is how much more can we do to bring those things together? Let's make sure all of our individual facets are as good as they possibly can be. But if we can bring them together, do we unlock something new? It becomes really powerful. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

100%. Yeah. So what's success for you personally, but also for Live Eric in, say, five years' time?

SPEAKER_00 38:08

I think my personal success will be very linked to that Live Eric success just because of the position I'm in. I think our ultimate goal is, as I say, to have multiple offices around the world delivering the very best sporting experiences that we can to any of our customers. I think my one of my personal drives currently, especially with my golf love, is how can we make sure that the experience golf really blooms, really flourishes. We are known around the world as the the as the golf tour operator that delivers the best luxury golf tour trips that can bolt on these uh other experiences. So when you know you come with us, you will leave having experienced and having felt the the the best you can do on a golf trip.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

And you and you see that that the experience going to Australia and going to Singapore, will it be under that guise as such?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

It will be under the Lyveera brand. Right. But with a experience golf being the golf delivery agent within that.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yes. Yeah. No, that's interesting. I I think it's fascinating. I think it's great that no one else has the real reach, and that's it, it's because Compass and Leave as a whole have got that massive reach through their catering eyes, but also their sporting connections as well. So that sport entertainment is is perfect for certainly for I think golfers listening. I mean, it's like if you can offer all that, why would you go anywhere else?

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Absolutely, and I mean I think it's probably fair to say across the stadia that we work with, just in the UK alone, half, if not more, of the C-suites within those stadia play golf. There is a natural connection. We see that within footballers and rugby players now. Um there there are a lot of there's so much crossover. Golf has, I think, been quietly sports sportsmen and women's second sport for a long time. And almost pre pang pre-pandemic, that people were maybe a little ashamed to say it was their second sport. But since the pandemic, everyone is out, everyone is being vocal in how much they love to play the game, how much that the sport helps you mentally but also physically, and it's just uh such a wonderful vehicle for socializing, for for competing, and yeah, we're in very, very privileged position in that we can start connecting quite a lot of those dots of people.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Come to our last two questions. Uh, first one, um, and you you've seen how people spend a lot of money, and you actually there's a question. Because golf has actually boomed now, as we just highlighted since the pandemic, you know, back in the day when you first started, golf wasn't a booming sport. You know, you think 2019 it wasn't booming. You know, are people still looking at surveys now, or do they just believe in, like, oh, we've cracked it?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Um I think there was a danger coming out of COVID that there were many, let's say many, golf clubs who suddenly were in the decline and had waiting lists and memberships full, who thought that they had cracked the secret source. Whereas the reality is the pandemic helped them crack the secret source. I think Simon Wordsworth said much the same in terms of that golf club has done nothing differently, and therefore, when there is any challenges going forwards, they're going to struggle. So I think to say that they shouldn't be looking at data is completely false. Um I think there is a point now to which golf is on the ascendancy. I think golf is finally cracked that stigma of being uncool. Um, and I think therefore golf will continue to flourish. I think that does pose challenges with regards to certain courses having wait-in lists in terms of the demand and therefore the price hikes that are coming with certain green fees. And the the disparity between the American and what the Americans are willing to pay does make it a challenge, and it's a challenge that we face and challenge that we're trying to trying to equalize somewhat. Um, but at the same time, I think golf is an incredibly strong health. And I think I'm fortunate, as you say, for at least 10 years of my career, I was tracking golf in a pretty steady decline. So it was nice to come out out of the pandemic and see see those numbers start going back up, but now hop on the other fence to being an operator and saying, well, how can we harness that as opposed to just looking at those numbers?

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, I like that. So, yeah, so so if you won the golf lottery, and all the money in the world, if we could only spend it on golf, what would you spend it on and why?

SPEAKER_00 43:09

So I put a lot of thought into this one, and I don't think I've got the right answer still. But having come back from what was pretty much a once-in-a-lifetime bucket list trip with seven very good friends, actually all from Prince's Golf Club. And tell tell everybody where you went, that was pretty cool. Okay, it sounds a bit braggy, so I apologise. But uh, so we had a few days at Pine Valley, um, then we went up and played Shinnicok, Garden City, and Friars Head. So very, very, very fortunate. But being able to take my friends and my family, my father plays, on trips like that once or twice a year, all expenses paid because I'm paying for it because I've won the lottery. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That that would be the best way. I think golf is fantastic, but golf without the right people around you is is nowhere near as good. So being able to take those closest and dearest to me to play the best courses around the world, that that would be the best way to spend that money. Good answer.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

And last one, which obviously gets everybody slightly emotional, um, is if you had a lot one last round of golf to play in your life, where would it be? Yeah, who would you play it with and why?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

The emotion is very real, um, and that would be at least making sure I was playing with my dad. Um, and I'd probably play here. I'd probably play at Princess. This is my home club if that wasn't clear. Um playing, we we're very fortunate we have 27 holes. Yeah. So I'm gonna eke out the extra nine holes on that. I mean, you said eventually you didn't say 18 holes. Um, I would play here, I'd definitely play with my dad. In an ideal situation, I would be playing with my mum, my dad, and my daughter. My wife doesn't play, so she she can come along if she chooses. Yeah, Caddy would drive the buggy because my daughter would only play if she's in a buggy. Okay. Um but mum plays, so it would be lovely to if that was had to be my last round, yeah. Might even do first nine with a couple of my buddies from here, and then maybe the last 18 with those guys, just to really eke it out. But yeah, being here, which I've been very fortunate to call my home course for about a decade now, um, with my yeah, my my closest would be that's the best way to go out, I think.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Nice answer. Rich, it's been fascinating talking with you. Now I completely understand why you jumped the fence and why you work for a caterer. Thanks, Neil. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Cheers.